What do people usually do in Esperanto to get around the lack of a 2nd person plural pronoun? Also, is anyone familiar with why he chose to leave this out of the language?
Thanks
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Tue, June 13, 2006 - 5:08 PMActually, "vi" is the 2nd person plural pronoun, and "ci" the 2nd person singular. But because different (usually European) languages also use the 2nd person plural as a "polite" form of the 2nd person singular and the 2nd person singular as a "familiar" form, Zamenhof recommended simplifying matters by using "vi" for everyone, both singular and plural, as one does in English with "you" (which itself was originally a 2nd person plural pronoun).
Now, when plurality must be underscored, Esperanto usually does what English does, and says "vi cxiuj" ("you all").
(In Ido, one of the many "reformed Esperanto" projects, there is a simpler, albeit more artificial solution: two separate 2nd person singular forms -- one polite ("vu") and the other familiar ("tu") -- and one 2nd person plural ("vi") for both.) -
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Wed, June 14, 2006 - 4:37 PM
I am not fond of saying "you all" in the clunky way we do in English. This is understood clearly, but it kind of detracts from the otherwise regularity of Esperanto. But I guess the important thing is whether people can understand eachother and not how perfect the language is.
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Wed, June 14, 2006 - 4:04 AMIn modern English usage, this concept is absent. This is one aspect of the language that doesn't seem to cause a problem. Do we need it? It doesn't seem like it. -
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Wed, June 14, 2006 - 4:35 PM
In some cases I have had difficulty. I wanted to say you (group) and I was unable to make it completely clear. This is easy in languages in which they are separate. -
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Wed, June 14, 2006 - 6:23 PMOkay, fair enough.
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Sun, June 18, 2006 - 11:44 AMI would say that since English is trying to evolve a new plural for the word "you" that yes it is necessary. Since E-o has a word for the singular you (ci) that those of who have a need for it ...use it. IMHO -
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Mon, June 19, 2006 - 4:03 AMWhat are you seeing that says english is trying to evolve a plural "you"? "Y'all" has been around for ages in certain dialects, along with its clear plural ("y'all" is a little indefinite) of "all y'all", but this is only in some dialects.
More importantly, I see English trying to evolve a singular third-person ungendered, for which the plural third person (they, their, them) is being used. If anything, this seems to indicate to me a reduced importance of specificity. -
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Mon, June 19, 2006 - 6:26 PM'Y'all' is actually already being increasingly used for second person singular, as had happened before with 'you'.
I have heard the construction 'all y'all', in fact.
I hope we won't be seeing some kind of open-ended recursion on this in the next few decades. -
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Tue, June 20, 2006 - 3:58 AM"I hope we won't be seeing some kind of open-ended recursion on this in the next few decades."
Something like "all of all y'all"
It's kind of like the "is is" you hear every now and then because the phrase "the problem is" has become a single unit in people's brains, resulting in "the problem is is that 'the problem is' has become a single unit in people's brains." (How's that for recursion?)
It reminds me of a story.
It was a dark and stormy night, and the Captain said to his crew "Crew," he said, "I'll tell you a story," and this is the story that he told:
It was a dark and stormy night, and the Captain said to his crew "Crew," he said, "I'll tell you a story," and this is the story that he told:
It was a dark and stormy night, and the Captain said to his crew "Crew," he said, "I'll tell you a story," and this is the story that he told:
It was a dark and stormy night, and the Captain said to his crew "Crew," he said, "I'll tell you a story," and this is the story that he told:
It was a dark and stormy night, and the Captain said to his crew "Crew," he said, "I'll tell you a story," and this is the story that he told:
(ad infinitum ad nauseum) -
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Tue, June 20, 2006 - 1:42 PMThe best way to interrupt this story is with a joke:
'How many passive-agressives does it take to change a lighbulb?' -
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Wed, June 21, 2006 - 5:54 AMThat works.
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Thu, June 22, 2006 - 3:22 PMI FREQUENTLY use They as an ungendered singular third-person. I use this in place of saying "he or she" as in "Someone can do here whatever they may please.", and when I don't know the gender of someone as in "That artist is good. They did a good job on that painting."
As for the plural second person, we generally use "you guys" in my region of the country. I have, of course, heard the well known "y'all" and "you all", but to the southeast of my region, people say "y'uns", which I assume is a contraction of "you ones".
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Thu, June 22, 2006 - 3:46 PMNear New York City (and perhaps part of New Jersey) you can occasionally hear "youse". -
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Fri, June 23, 2006 - 3:53 AM"Near New York City (and perhaps part of New Jersey) you can occasionally hear "youse"."
I've also heard this one expanded into a second person plural posessive, "youse guys's", as in "over at youse guys's place". Not generally considered proper, but propriety changes with time.
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Fri, June 23, 2006 - 9:42 AMenglish a a perfectly good nongender specific pronoun "one". I may be antiquated but it works. I use it quite often. the use of "they" for a singular pronoun seems to me to a bit awkward. e.g.. "One should do one's best when trying to achieve greatness" I see it used more in British speech and writing than in Amerlish. -
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Re: Lack of 2nd Person Plural Pronoun
Sat, June 24, 2006 - 5:42 AM"One" works fine instead of "They" when you are referring to a hypothetical situation and not referring to a specific person:
"One can do whatever one may want."
In the case of a specific person though, this does not work well:
"That artist is good. One did a good job on that painting."
If I am not mistaken, "One" is generally used in conditional and subjunctive moods.
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